Advice Required! How long should you wait for your PhD result after submitting with minors?

P

I hope you're now considering legal advice regarding your situation - someone clearly has it in for you, and you need to make sure you've covered your bases. Despicable behaviour on their part - an honest mistake that could have been rectified discreetly, but that's clearly not their agenda.

F

Quote From JStanley:
Jeez, mate. To echo others, I am just glad that your current employer is on your side. I have no advice to give, faded07. I do believe that everyone has to answer for their conduct in the end though and whoever did this will get no luck for this. You stay being you. This case just shows how the UK system needs to be overhauled. A more moderated system like you have in US and mainland Europe would surely prevent this kind of thing. Placing all this power in the hands of a stranger is crazy in this day and age. I just wish for strength and support for you, faded. I look forward to you getting your PhD (which you should have been awarded 2 years ago) and publishing works and going on to be successful at whatever you do. And remember you are so strong to keep going through this. You can get through anything now, faded.


Hey JStanley, good to hear from you. Thank you for your supportive words. It is a crazy situation to be in and seems to get worse the further I venture down this path. I hope with all my heart that I get this PhD. I just seem lost in this grey waiting area terrified at the fact that my external seems willing to do anything she can to make sure I don't get this doctorate. I just hope justice is served. Will let you know! - Anz (now known as faded due to the paranoia that someone is clearly Google stalking me...! Not that there is anything wrong with writing here, plus it's all anonymous etc. And, to be honest, I feel faded at this stage!!)

F

Hello all,

Thank you once again for all your supportive messages. I am pleased to say that the complaint against me has been dropped after I provided sufficient evidence that I never used the title of 'Dr' to falsify or mislead anyone into giving me a job etc. Fortunately I was able to prove that this misunderstanding was down to administrative error. I would certainly never dream of calling myself a Dr - my PhD process has been jinxed enough as it is!!

Still no news regarding my result/examiner's dispute. So the wait continues.

I'm certain that this student complaint was directly resulted to the dispute and has held my result up for even longer. Not too sure if I'll hear anything this side of Christmas...

I've decided not to chase the university for now as any contact I have with them seems to result in very negative circumstances. I think I'm best giving them space and hoping that they are fighting for me (cue eye roll). Plus, my most recent emails of two weeks ago have been ignored anyway so I'm sure that more emails and phone calls will just meet the same fate.

Will keep you all updated.

P

Quote From PracticalMouse:
I hope you're now considering legal advice regarding your situation - someone clearly has it in for you, and you need to make sure you've covered your bases. Despicable behaviour on their part - an honest mistake that could have been rectified discreetly, but that's clearly not their agenda.


Legal action? Against who? On what grounds? How should it be funded?
I cant imagine adding a legal case to the current situation would help faded07.

F

So I finally got my result...which isn't really much of a result. As I've stated before, I doubt my 'congratulations Dr' email will ever come.

Although I've had 12 months R&R, followed by a 6 month minor revision period - both of which have taken up 2 years of my life (my viva was in December 2014), due to the dispute over my revisions, I have been given special permission by the Deputy Vice Chancellor to give further consideration to what my external examiner wants. As a result of this, I've been sent a rather vague 3 paragraphs of further revisions to do over the next 6 months (even though my last submission was meant to be my final submission - as per the university regulations).

This is a result I was not expecting at all because my last outcome letter said that my last submission would indeed be my last. So the thought of going back to my thesis now just seems impossible - I can barely remember large chunks of it.

I am absolutely sure at this stage that however I attempt to do these corrections will not please my external as we clearly are living in parallel universes. I am also sure that, if I resubmit for a third time, I will be waiting until 2018 for my result which, quite likely, will be a fail as my external has repeatedly shown that she does not want this thesis passed.

I think this revision period is just a way of giving the university more time to figure out how to deal with the situation. It's just time buying, nothing more.

So I don't know what to do. I've just thrown half my work across the room out of rage so, as you can imagine, I'm dealing with the situation very well.

My job is also incredibly demanding and I can barely stay afloat. There's no way I'm walking away from the PhD...but I don't deem this situation fair at all. Any advice greatly appreciated.

G

Is there any hope of appointing a different external at this stage? I do think you deserve your PhD after everything, but it seems submitting more revisions to this person is a recipe for more delay. Can you have a face to face meeting with your supervisor in which you lay out, in objective factual language, the timeline from your viva to now and suggest that - given all the delays and mistakes - you feel you are now entitled to have your work assessed by a third person? That seems to me the best avenue to pursue.

G

I also think you should get your ducks in a row for an official appeal, first via the university process and then via the OIAHE ombudsman. I have never heard of so much incompetence, malice, and nonsense in my life. If there is no chance of a new examiner, I think perhaps an appeal of the results is in order - on the grounds of procedural unfairness, given the delay in communicating the first report to you and in the handling of the revisions from them on - and your supervisor should know that you are looking seriously at a formal complaint to the ombudsman.

P

Quote From pm133:
Quote From PracticalMouse:
I hope you're now considering legal advice regarding your situation - someone clearly has it in for you, and you need to make sure you've covered your bases. Despicable behaviour on their part - an honest mistake that could have been rectified discreetly, but that's clearly not their agenda.


Legal action? Against who? On what grounds? How should it be funded?
I cant imagine adding a legal case to the current situation would help faded07.


That's why I used the words 'considering' and 'advice'. In light of further developments I think not totally unwarranted.

P

Quote From faded07:
So I finally got my result...which isn't really much of a result. As I've stated before, I doubt my 'congratulations Dr' email will ever come.

Although I've had 12 months R&R, followed by a 6 month minor revision period - both of which have taken up 2 years of my life (my viva was in December 2014), due to the dispute over my revisions, I have been given special permission by the Deputy Vice Chancellor to give further consideration to what my external examiner wants. As a result of this, I've been sent a rather vague 3 paragraphs of further revisions to do over the next 6 months (even though my last submission was meant to be my final submission - as per the university regulations).

This is a result I was not expecting at all because my last outcome letter said that my last submission would indeed be my last. So the thought of going back to my thesis now just seems impossible - I can barely remember large chunks of it.

I am absolutely sure at this stage that however I attempt to do these corrections will not please my external as we clearly are living in parallel universes. I am also sure that, if I resubmit for a third time, I will be waiting until 2018 for my result which, quite likely, will be a fail as my external has repeatedly shown that she does not want this thesis passed.

I think this revision period is just a way of giving the university more time to figure out how to deal with the situation. It's just time buying, nothing more.

So I don't know what to do. I've just thrown half my work across the room out of rage so, as you can imagine, I'm dealing with the situation very well.

My job is also incredibly demanding and I can barely stay afloat. There's no way I'm walking away from the PhD...but I don't deem this situation fair at all. Any advice greatly appreciated.


You are in a difficult situation and it is impossible not to empathise with you but the fact of the matter is that if you want your PhD award you will need to find a way to get this mountain scaled. For a start you need to find a way of changing your mindset. Understandably you feel victimised here but that mindset is poisonous and risks ruining you. You are being given another chance to pass this. If you accept that in a positive mindset then you regain some control. Remaining a victim puts others in control. I dont recommend that. Right now this is not about who is right or wrong. Its about recognising what is within your power to control and making it happen to the best of your abilities. Once you have pass it you will have the rest of your life to assign blame for what has happened to you. Right now you have other priorities.

P

Quote From PracticalMouse:
Quote From pm133:
Quote From PracticalMouse:
I hope you're now considering legal advice regarding your situation - someone clearly has it in for you, and you need to make sure you've covered your bases. Despicable behaviour on their part - an honest mistake that could have been rectified discreetly, but that's clearly not their agenda.


Legal action? Against who? On what grounds? How should it be funded?
I cant imagine adding a legal case to the current situation would help faded07.


That's why I used the words 'considering' and 'advice'. In light of further developments I think not totally unwarranted.


I have not followed all of this posters story so I am unaware of any illegal behaviour by anyone.
This simply looks like a story of one person struggling to prove their work is good enough to win a PhD in the face of quite a few setbacks and what seems a poor initial submission.
That is why I was asking you what grounds she could sue and who she should sue. I am still interested in hearing your view on that
whether you use the words consider and advise or not.

F

Quote From pm133:
Quote From PracticalMouse:
Quote From pm133:
Quote From PracticalMouse:
I hope you're now considering legal advice regarding your situation - someone clearly has it in for you, and you need to make sure you've covered your bases. Despicable behaviour on their part - an honest mistake that could have been rectified discreetly, but that's clearly not their agenda.


Legal action? Against who? On what grounds? How should it be funded?
I cant imagine adding a legal case to the current situation would help faded07.


That's why I used the words 'considering' and 'advice'. In light of further developments I think not totally unwarranted.


I have not followed all of this posters story so I am unaware of any illegal behaviour by anyone.
This simply looks like a story of one person struggling to prove their work is good enough to win a PhD in the face of quite a few setbacks and what seems a poor initial submission.
That is why I was asking you what grounds she could sue and who she should sue. I am still interested in hearing your view on that
whether you use the words consider and advise or not.


Thank you for the 'poor initial submission' comment which has really boosted my morale. The thesis I initially submitted hasn't actually been edited - it has only ever been added to so I guess my examiner's had no problem with the quality of what I'd written, they just wanted more chapters added in on things that suited my external's stance on the topic.

I appreciate your insight though if you truly believe the legal route isn't the way to go. I think it may well be eventually (thank you PracticalMouse) but I'm trying to hold off on it for as long as possible. I'm currently seeking advice from the Student Union and my supervisor.

F

Latest update: I had a meeting with my supervisor yesterday who is being surprisingly supportive. He's just as furious as me and agrees that we could be working on revisions for another 20 years and my external would still fail it. Even he said that this was becoming more of a personal attack due to our ideological differences on what is, in essence, quite a sensitive research topic.

So, for now, I'm heading down the appeal road which will be long and tedious but I'm sure at this stage that it is the right thing to do.

The revisions my external has recommended are very short (about 10 lines) and incredibly vague. Even my supervisor said he doesn't understand what she's asking and can't think of anything to say to me anymore. We really have exhausted all options with these revisions.

I know my external has been signed off ill and I'm starting to wonder whether this could be due to a mental health problem as her behaviour is veering down the maverick path.

The one thing that has lifted my spirits is that my supervisor has said that my internal thought I had fully addressed all the revisions asked of me and has been fighting for me to be awarded this PhD. Why my external is so hellbent on me working on infinite revisions (considering the thesis is 163,000 words) beggars belief. Everyone at my institution is in agreement that I have addressed the revisions asked of me.

So, let's see where the road takes me. I am exhausted by the whole process but I'm 100% ready for this fight. I've been waiting an awfully long time for it...

C

Good luck, faded. I'm very glad to hear you have the support of your supervisor and your internal examiner on this. It does sound like it has become completely personal for the external examiner. I think everyone bar this one examiner is on your side here.

E

I think you're right that this could go on indefinitely if you let it. I didn't know it was even possible to be given further revisions after doing an R&R then minor corrections - surely there has to be a decision one way or the other by this stage? I'm surprised the institution isn't doing more to enforce that, as surely the situation is in breach of their own regulations now?

I'm struggling a bit to understand what your external's motivation could be for behaving in this way. My best guess is that she is determined not to pass you (for whatever personal or ideological reasons) but knows she can't justify failing you. That's the only reason I can think for dragging the process on like this. If she had a justifiable argument for your revised thesis not being up to academic standards, she could give her decision as a fail -- and then presumably whatever procedures the university has to handle a disagreement between examiners would come into play. The fact that she can't/won't do this strongly suggests that she knows no reasonable person would fail you, so the only way to keep you from passing is to keep you stuck in limbo like this until you give up.

I do think the PhD examination system works well the vast majority of the time (for all the criticism it gets) -- but this is a true example of how it can go bad, when one of the examiners is being completely unreasonable and unprofessional in their conduct, and no one can overrule them because academic judgement is sacrosanct.

P

Quote From faded07:
Quote From pm133:
Quote From PracticalMouse:
Quote From pm133:
Quote From PracticalMouse:
I hope you're now considering legal advice regarding your situation - someone clearly has it in for you, and you need to make sure you've covered your bases. Despicable behaviour on their part - an honest mistake that could have been rectified discreetly, but that's clearly not their agenda.


Legal action? Against who? On what grounds? How should it be funded?
I cant imagine adding a legal case to the current situation would help faded07.


That's why I used the words 'considering' and 'advice'. In light of further developments I think not totally unwarranted.


I have not followed all of this posters story so I am unaware of any illegal behaviour by anyone.
This simply looks like a story of one person struggling to prove their work is good enough to win a PhD in the face of quite a few setbacks and what seems a poor initial submission.
That is why I was asking you what grounds she could sue and who she should sue. I am still interested in hearing your view on that
whether you use the words consider and advise or not.


Thank you for the 'poor initial submission' comment which has really boosted my morale. The thesis I initially submitted hasn't actually been edited - it has only ever been added to so I guess my examiner's had no problem with the quality of what I'd written, they just wanted more chapters added in on things that suited my external's stance on the topic.

I appreciate your insight though if you truly believe the legal route isn't the way to go. I think it may well be eventually (thank you PracticalMouse) but I'm trying to hold off on it for as long as possible. I'm currently seeking advice from the Student Union and my supervisor.


I based my comment on the fact you had to go through a 12 month Revise and Resubmit, with several chapters missing by your own admission. In any case I was referring to state of your thesis nearly two years ago. My comment was not a personal attack and should have had no effect on your morale. I can't understand why it would. The only reason I even mentioned it was to try and persuade another poster to detail why they thought legal advice should be a consideration.

Anyway, the point is that you have clearly improved your thesis to a point where only minor revisions are required. Under those circumstances I don't understand the need for legal action but you are clearly considering it. I am only asking on what grounds you feel legal action would be appropriate because if you haven't thought it through, it could be a disastrous route to take for all sorts of reason: not the least of which is potential for ruining your own state of mind. Is there something specific which is leading you to think about going down a legal route?

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