======= Date Modified 29 May 2009 15:47:19 =======
OK - apparently my post was too long! Here's the rest of it ...

I believe that some desire for recognition is completely understandable. At this point in postgraduate education, there’s a lot of criticism without much applause. A promising child (and sometimes even a promising undergraduate) receives loads of encouragement and accolades. A promising postgraduate student... usually does not receive repeated reassurance. At some point we need to remember that we’re in an odd limbo that many career-oriented people do not experience. We are still students but also in the early stages of a professional career. It’s a stage where we need to affirm our own potential, because most postgraduate supervisors find it unprofessional or perhaps condescending to repeatedly applaud their advisees’ promise. But I hate the idea that a desire for recognition is somehow base or ignoble! It is human nature to want to leave a mark on the world. And as people in the prime of our youth, why should we stifle our yearning to make a difference, to be acknowledged? The life of a student can feel incredibly anonymous and demoralizing– there’s nothing wrong with wanting to show the world what you can do.

So I suppose the question is: what can you do to cultivate your academic zeal and fulfill the desire for recognition? Keeping a research or brainstorming blog might be a relatively simple way to share ideas and get feedback from others. You never know who might stumble across it...I’ve been contacted a few times because of things I wrote on the Internet. A blog is also a good way to share the non-academic part of you & explore how that part interacts with your drive for research. Sometimes your research will affect you personally, and it’s good to explore that: no matter how analytical people think academic research is, personality is still a vital component of every study in every field. The research journals of ancient and more modern scientists alike prove this to be true.

Another option might be to look into postgraduate conferences or other ways of presenting your research. Even attending said conferences can be a great motivator & way to network with others in your field.

Anyway, I know this is really long, but hopefully this response helps a little. Feel free to email me if you want to talk further (aletheis (at) gmail.com).

@ aletheis,

Excellent post by the way. Very thoughtful. A blog sounds like an excellent idea as a starting point for sharing your work with the masses. You can reach a lot of people and regularly update them with your thoughts and feelings about research in general or your specific area of research. write articles, poems, jokes and draw pictures what ever you want.... I know quite a lot of Phders that do this

My last post might have sounded harsh but I am being honest. If you want recognition of the kind you are referring to then you really need to reach out there and grab it. My experience in academia is that to be recognized you need to be bullish by putting yourself out front and center otherwise people walk all over you and take the credit.

I still feel the kind of recognition you crave is a lot more mainstream that what most academics will ever achieve. A lot of it depends on how "sexy" the topic you are working on is (i.e are you seeking to discover a new elementary particle or develop a theory on how the universe came into existence or a cure for cancer...? most people are not going to be interested in the majority of research topics which are more mundane. For examples things like: research on the mating habits of chimps or the evolution of local governments in 16 century bl bla bla. Given that PhD research tends to be very focused, the average person is only going to be interested in the broader details of the more sexy research subjects which are usually in the physical sciences ( medicine, physics,engineering, psychology....)

a very interesting remark that I have heard on numerous occasions relevant to this topic is that you cannot educate the public!!! A remarkable, but very true statement I think

Hi Eueu it's a very interesting post and thanks for the discussion it has provided. I know what you mean about difficulty in making friends in your dept because you expect it not to be hard to make friends with your peers especially if you've never had trouble before. It's very unnerving and can affect you in many ways but you can make friends when/where you least expect to and not necessary in your dept although if you did that would make things more pleasant and easier! I think age can come into it but more importantly you make friends based on shared interests/viewpoints/experiences or some characteristics you admire/respect to name a few reasons. Sometimes you can be really different but hit it off immediately or vaguely know somebody but manage to build up a friendship more easily with than with people you see every day! If there is a huge gap between you and the 30 + yr olds maybe it's because they perceive you as a lot younger than them and don't think they have anything in common with you. Maybe you could try finding some common ground between you and them. I know people who are able to make friends with people almost twice their age/half their age as they have something in common (definitely not their age - excuse the pun!) ;-)

Doing a PhD is by nature a very isolating and lonely process so if you don't have a support network especially in a new place this will make you feel even more alienated! A good suggestion is to get involved with outside activities if time permits and keep up your support network at home or wherever your friends are as they will be vital to helping you through. However as somebody has already mentioned in this post don't expect them to understand what you do so it's best not to moan to a non PhDer about your PhD problems as they won't understand and may frustrate you even more! Also to bear in mind that PhDers are strange creatures with lots of insecurities (some hide it better than others) so as the old cliché goes - academics are weird and very socially inept I'm afraid!!! :p

You are as old as you feel but it's difficult to be reminded all the time that you are of a different age to the others especially if you are aware of it already! There are advantages to doing a PhD early in that you have a long time to accomplish something as people have already mentioned to you! Think of it as a head start to the PhDers who started later, however it is usually easier for them to focus and adjust to the mindset of doing a PhD. As all PhDers know that can take sometime!

Unfortunately you've got it right - nobody really cares about what we do! Friends who have been through the system usually take more of an interest than non-academic friends and family who don't know what you do or understand what you do! I remember someone once said to me "What you only want to be a lecturer!" as if it was the worse job in the world with no prospects! Ideally I'd be content with just doing research but it usually involves a lectureship eventually! I should really aim higher ;-) and this person had been to uni and is a nice person! It says a lot really about what people think of academics! Or maybe this person knows something I don't!

I think it is due to the fact that you can’t see the immediate impact/benefit of what we do so people just think we do it to 1) avoid a “real” job 2) just to stay at uni 3) we have nothing better to do (see point 1) etc... Most people do not know or understand what we do. It’s funny seeing the reactions of people when I tell them what I do – some people think I’m joking and others then ask totally unrelated questions about it or make totally unrelated wise cracks! It’s something you have to get used to I’m afraid! I used to be full of enthusiasm about telling people and then you realise that people aren’t interested and switch off!

As for the media I can’t help you there – I have no experience of

It seems my post was too long so here is the rest of it ...

Perhaps if we made more effort to break down what we do for the general public and media they might be more interested. It would be nice to get some recognition for all the hard we do especially from our supervisors and our peers which doesn’t really happen very often. The public can't recognise what we do as they don't understand what we do - a PhD what is that good for? The jury is still out on that one! ;-)

Anyway I hope this helps in some way, sorry it has turned into an essay and does repeat what some of the others have said. Doing a PhD is a rollercoaster of emotions so you are constantly battling with your inner demons and no one’s project ever goes to plan which adds to the stress of it all which can be very overwhelming! Posting on this forum is a good way to get it out of the way and gets people talking! :-) And you never know you may get fame here - and then the media next! Good luck with it all! We do live in a celebrity culture although academia seems quite sheltered from it so far!

Your first mistake is probably trying too hard to get noticed by your peers - what makes them so difficult to befriend? You're in your 20's and they are in their 30's - there has to be some sort of common ground. Maybe they feel you're too standoffish? Now - the whole doing something big thing - that's the movies. So and so doing something HUGE at 15 is few and far between. Just remember you are your own person - don't hold yourself to some standard you can't reach.

Hello all! this is my first post. I'm 29 years old (because I've started my BSc a little bit late) and I'm starting my MSc in Neuroscience this year.During my Bachelor, I've been working in lab and I'm very enthusiastic about it. Doing experiments, reading papers, meeting people and hearing other aspects of the problems.. I was just wondering....is it too late to start at my age?

Thank you for your replies! and sorry about my english!  :-)

no its never too late. I know of people doing PhDs in there 50s..... if your committed and dont mind the drop in salary for 3-4 years then why not?

Age should never really be an issue directly although its usually tied in with family circumstances i.e people in late 20s-30s are more likely to have young families or have family plans for the near future so i gather this usually weighs in on the desicion to do a phd. It probably isnt ideal undertaking a PhD while trying to raise a family but there are a few people on this forum that do it.

Nope, of course its not too late, or if it is then I'm in trouble lol. I didn't start my BA until I was 34! I did my MA while I was 38 and started my PhD a few days before my 39th birthday - you're ten years behind me! I actually did things the other way around, had my family, a job etc, and then came back to studying, my youngest was only 11 months old when I began my BA so its all do-able :-) I think being more mature has definate advantages so don't worry, go for it, you are most certainly NOT too young, infact there are some students in the 20s in my dept doing PhDs, but the majority of them are 35+ so in my dept you'd be one of the very young ones! :-)

======= Date Modified 17 Jun 2009 15:37:03 =======
I can see where you're coming from, Eueu, but at the same time I agree with what everyone else has said. I had the same experience you did at 23 and I was just working - I felt that it was too late to do anything amazing with my life because I had wasted all those previous years being boring and average. Turns out, I was just bored and stressed - I started my BA at 26 and found an amazing passion for my subject and for academics that I never thought existed, if all things go to plan I'll be 31 when I start my PhD.



This doesn't bother me at all - I don't feel that it's 'too late' and that I can never do anything worthwhile to change the world. Yes, I share your passion to do productive things that show the world that academics is important, but I agree with what's said before; you have to go out there and show people just exactly how it is important. Age really has nothing to do with it - it's passion and drive that will take you where you want to go. Your best years are ALL your years, really, and it takes time to actually learn these things.



As for those people who are famous at a young age - I'd disregard them. Everyone functions at different levels, some are focused at an early age, others (like me) are late starters. The bonus of being a late starter, or even a 'normal' driven person is that you won't crash and burn at 25.  I don't read Heat magazine but from the front covers I see in shops it's quite obvious that being a celebrity - and being a young successful one at that - is not a guarantee of success and generally results in eventual career meltdown and rehab. As for those (few) people who go to University at 16 and can play Mozart at the age of 6..well, yeah, they don't have it so easy either.



I find I tend to get more stubborn and obstinate as I get older, and usually when someone says "But so-and-so was X when he/she was published/won an Oscar/stared in a Blockbuster etc.." I usually reply "I couldn't give a damn how old they were, I'm not them - I'll take my own damn time!"



And as for being surrounded by people who are 30+ - that really doesn't mean 'grown up'. I have friends who are 19 who act more grown up than my 30-yer-old friends. Why don't you just talk to them as human beings - if anyone tries to disregard you because you're younger then they're not worth your time, most people are generally quite happy to take you as you are regardless of age. And you have nothing to apologise for if you find someone knows more than you or something - quite often there may be something they don't know, and really, you are doing a PhD to learn so yeah, of course there is gonna be something you may not know!



Really, you need to look at what you are passionate about in your course, and gain your strength and drive from that - it's quite normal to go through a mid-20's crisis, but you get over it eventually



;-)