Anyone else intimidated by very high achievers?
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[quote]Quote From pjlu:
======= Date Modified 01 Nov 2011 20:10:06 =======
Finally, I think it is really important not to assume that people who have the most marvellous achievements and things, are necessarily unhealthily driven or unhappy or not nice people..
[quote]
Returned for a bit :-) to say yes to this above. We must not assume that these horrible people "cry into their soup at night because they have no soul" or "even if they outwardly deny it are working insane hours to outshine others".
Who are we to decide if someone has a soul or not? And if they are crying into their soup at night, it could well be us next. And what do they have to do to prove that they are perhaps not trying to outshine others? Work less? Achieve less? Stop? Become a clone of X person? Becuase clearly denying it is not enough.
I absolutely don't mean to offend Wally or Sneaks, but both these comments seemed unfair. But it is good to know people think this way.
Well, I think I'm pretty dumb really. I've just been in the right place at the right time. I have enough effort to get writing done, but generally I'm quite lazy.
I went into doing this because of some unknown pressure from somewhere that said 'otherwise you'll have to work in a shop' - but I wished at some point, I'd stopped to ask myself 'what's wrong with that', because I now see people living much happier, settled lives than I do. I kind of long for a life where I could stop thinking about work at 5pm.
Well, I think I'm pretty dumb really. I've just been in the right place at the right time. I have enough effort to get writing done, but generally I'm quite lazy.
I went into doing this because of some unknown pressure from somewhere that said 'otherwise you'll have to work in a shop' - but I wished at some point, I'd stopped to ask myself 'what's wrong with that', because I now see people living much happier, settled lives than I do. I kind of long for a life where I could stop thinking about work at 5pm.
..... me exactly Sneaks. Especially since I've finished and there's bog all jobs/ money around to continue on with research with any sort of security.
======= Date Modified 04 Nov 2011 14:44:35 =======
[quote]Quote From pjlu:
======= Date Modified 01 Nov 2011 20:10:06 =======
Finally, I think it is really important not to assume that people who have the most marvellous achievements and things, are necessarily unhealthily driven or unhappy or not nice people..
[quote]
Returned for a bit :-) to say yes to this above. We must not assume that these horrible people "cry into their soup at night because they have no soul" or "even if they outwardly deny it are working insane hours to outshine others".
Who are we to decide if someone has a soul or not? And if they are crying into their soup at night, it could well be us next. And what do they have to do to prove that they are perhaps not trying to outshine others? Work less? Achieve less? Stop? Become a clone of X person? Becuase clearly denying it is not enough.
I absolutely don't mean to offend Wally or Sneaks, but both these comments seemed unfair. But it is good to know people think this way.
No offence taken whatsoever, PhDBug. I meant the comment that I made light-heartedly, as I think Sneaks did with hers, so please don't think that it was meant as an insult.
I think that the debate on IQ and the ability to do a PhD is interesting. I don't think that you have to be intelligent to get a PhD. I'm living proof of that - up until a few years ago I thought you needed a passport to go to Wales. I think it is more that people with high IQs tend to gravitate more towards and are more likely to be accepted to do a PhD, Masters and so on. Would it be fair to say that IQ (unless it is below average) is not a barrier to a PhD but a significant determinant of the eventual outcome of the research? So I passed mine, with what I think to be fairly average intelligence. But if I'd have been a genius, it would have been infinitely better and more sophisticated.
======= Date Modified 04 Nov 2011 14:44:35 =======
[quote]Quote From pjlu:
======= Date Modified 01 Nov 2011 20:10:06 =======
Finally, I think it is really important not to assume that people who have the most marvellous achievements and things, are necessarily unhealthily driven or unhappy or not nice people..
[quote]
Returned for a bit :-) to say yes to this above. We must not assume that these horrible people "cry into their soup at night because they have no soul" or "even if they outwardly deny it are working insane hours to outshine others".
Who are we to decide if someone has a soul or not? And if they are crying into their soup at night, it could well be us next. And what do they have to do to prove that they are perhaps not trying to outshine others? Work less? Achieve less? Stop? Become a clone of X person? Becuase clearly denying it is not enough.
I absolutely don't mean to offend Wally or Sneaks, but both these comments seemed unfair. But it is good to know people think this way.
No offence taken whatsoever, PhDBug. I meant the comment that I made light-heartedly, as I think Sneaks did with hers, so please don't think that it was meant as an insult.
I think that the debate on IQ and the ability to do a PhD is interesting. I don't think that you have to be intelligent to get a PhD. I'm living proof of that - up until a few years ago I thought you needed a passport to go to Wales. I think it is more that people with high IQs tend to gravitate more towards and are more likely to be accepted to do a PhD, Masters and so on. Would it be fair to say that IQ (unless it is below average) is not a barrier to a PhD but a significant determinant of the eventual outcome of the research? So I passed mine, with what I think to be fairly average intelligence. But if I'd have been a genius, it would have been infinitely better and more sophisticated.
Oh dear, what an unfortunate thread to have stumbled on as my introduction to this forum, which I have just joined.
I fear everyone is going to hate me now, as perhaps I am one those intimidating sorts since I have been involved in starting charities (there is nothing to it really, don't waste your money on lawyers) we are human you know. In fact I would say for the first 40 years of my life, until I had the opportunity to return to education and ultimately higher education, I was something of an underachiever, and by conventional tests my IQ is not stratospheric.
What sets me apart is that I have a whole different attitude to education than a younger person, it's my last chance so I am going to give it all I have got. It's an effort for sure, even for those for whom it seems effortless there is going to be effort involved. Maybe if I had started my postgrad career at a younger age I would feel intimidated by others who I perceived to be higher up the scale than me, in the way I am say, intimidated by virtuoso musicians when I cannot even read music.
Never mind anything else I doubt if there is any one who has not felt the faking it syndrome, as if they did not really belong and were not worthy.
I wouldn't be at all surprised if many of these high achievers who seem to be intimidating are not suffering from an even higher sense of insecurity that has driven them on, but they will never be satisfied nor, know when to stop.
Larry
There are some people who are just amazingly brilliant at what ever they do. I am never going to be as good as them so I just ignore it and carry on trying to do what I can. I have friends who didn't get many GCSEs let alone qualifications afterwards, I still love them and value their company even though 'academically' I have achieved more. So I know I don't judge others on that and so shouldn't judge myself on it either.
There is no standard you should expect of yourself but just 'try your best'.
When I go to meetings with my 2 supervisors I feel such a twit. They have awards a plenty, and international recognition in their field. I am still at the start of my PhD and currently fall into a bundle of nerves, wibble pathetic rubbish at the meetings and forget what little science I do know. Total inferiority complex is normal.
Just keep bashing at it, you are not the only one out there who is in awe of their colleagues.
I had a friend who said that apaprently, some people just have the right personalities to be all round superstars. The kind of women who get up at 5am, go to the gym for an hour, come home, get the kids to school, then do a full days worth of work (where they excel), then come home, walk the dog, bake some cookies, cook a lovely home made meal, play with kids etc. etc. and don't feel knackered. If I did half of that, I'd sleep for a week!
Interesting debate about IQ and PhD. I tend to agree with whoever said that people doing PhDs/graduates are probably surrounded by others who have done similar things and also have high IQ, therefore your perception of what is average is skewed by this (they put it better that I just have!). You only have to watch TOWIE, big brother or Jeremy Kyle to realise what average intelligence might be! For my research study I had a patient group and a control group. I had to work hard to find controls outside the University population as they all did too well on the cognitive assessment and I ended up with a significantly difference in IQ between the two groups.
Then there's the whole what is intelligence anyway? and is it measured by IQ tests? I don't know quite where to go with that one. I do know IQ tends to correlate with scores on cognitive assessment. Years in education also tends to correlate with scores on cognitive assessments, even in the over 65 age group.
As for being intimidated by high achievers, I think to an extent it’s normal to compare ourselves to others and unless you have very high self esteem or are an arrogant tw@, you can end up comparing yourself unfavourably. People probably see me as a high achiever, I always did well in school and am on my way to getting a PhD. I’m also currently unemployed and have been rejected from 5 interviews in the past year.
For me there are far too many variables, some within our control and some beyond our control, which influence how well, or otherwise, we do in life. I'm not intimidated by high achievers because we can never be sure what goes on behind the scenes. Personal and true happiness, for me, is the real mark of success. If someone is on the street, selling the Big Issue but is happy with life then this is the person I envy. Someone could have the big house, big cars, afford the best of holidays yet be deeply unhappy as they feeling something is lacking. That's not a mark of success, in my opinion.
