I am fast approaching the end of my EngD and starting to weigh up my options for the future. I know I want to go into industry rather than academia, but don't know what the best route to take into industry is. What I am keen to understand is others experience of gaining a direct entry into a named position in an organisation or going into industry through a graduate scheme after a doctorate and how you came to these decisions.

I am currently trying to work out whether it would be better to use the skills, experience and contacts I have built up over the last four years or going back to the grass roots to broaden my skills base, gain wider experience and try some new areas of business.

Thanks,
Willie

Don't be going for a graduate scheme thing, you could have done that 3 or 4 years ago. Search for a company that will value your qualification. You *should* start on more money and in a slightly higher position than a graduate. Obviously you will probably be behind people who went straight into industry from undergrad though.

Try and find smaller companies. Larger ones will just try and shove you through the graduate scheme. Many companies either don't rate a doctorate or don't understand it (or both) so they will basically lob you in with everyone else. Your best bet is to furiously network with people and get in through contacts at various firms.

Most of my friends who went on graduate schemes were not fans. Most who worked for smaller companies did a lot better for themselves in terms of pay and experience (myself included). Obviously that was before the bust though and during the boom, so it was a little bit easier to get a job...

======= Date Modified 04 Apr 2011 11:20:12 =======
There is no reason why you shouldn't get paid more than a graduate with 4 years experience in a position where you have been running your own project, team, budget and tackling theorectical and practical problems in a commercial way. Your responsibility over the last years has been much higher than a graduate engineer. You have 4 years experience as you have been in the company, you have a doctorate and have studied MBA modules. You are highly valuable to any company. You can also apply to be chartered which you should do immediately. Don't take a salary less than £40k and push for more. The average salary for a graduate EngD is around £45k and most companies are aware of the programme. You can apply for senior engineer and project manager positions. The company I work for offered a position perfectly aimed at someone with an EngD, it is a senior engineer role, 4 years relevant experience and an emphasis on theoretical skills. The salary is £50k+benefits.

Can you work for the company you did your EngD at?

======= Date Modified 04 Apr 2011 11:48:49 =======
I understand the other posts, however, I don't entirely agree.

You can argue four years experience, however, where have you been for those four years?  One thing you cannot get away from is that expectations outside academia are very different and a lot more target and deadline driven.  Yes, you do get deadlines in academia, however, these are inclined to slippage provided you can show you've made some sort of 'effort' to meet them.

My answer, having spent significant periods on both sides of the fence is between the two poll options.  If you've had a period in the 'real world' before returning to do a PhD / DPhil, then definitely go for direct entry.  However, if you're mid-twenties and have done PhD / DPhil directly after your degree without a spell outside academia, then I would also consider 'graduate entry'.

To learn any graduate level plus job to a high level of competence, it takes roughly two years depending on the skill level of the job.  For those fresh to the 'real world'  only if the direct position is similar to your PhD / DPhil would I say go for it.   However, if significantly different and you are looking for a career with a given company, a graduate scheme may give you a greater breadth of understanding of the organisation and how it fits into it's marketplace.

It's not a clear cut answer and there will be shades of grey depending on the skills jump the candidate has to make.   Also, a PhD / DPhil equips with you a certain mindset in that you can be too focussed on a small number of tasks when in the real world you have to sometimes juggle many jobs simultaneously.   That was my biggest challenge and I'm still not sure I've shaken myself free of that.   I've also read bits and pieces where employers have said PhD / DPhil holders are perceived as not taking deadlines too seriously, a major annoyance to some.

A graduate scheme may thus at least instill in some a greater appreciation of these differences and why they exist, before more responsibility is conferred upon the person concerned.

Mackem,
The EngD is very different from the PhD. It is an R&D role in industry, you are not based in university and academia. You are based in a company working on real projects in a team of engineers. You attain 4 years industrial experience and this allows you to obtain chartership. It meets all the requirements set by the engineering council.

======= Date Modified 04 Apr 2011 13:48:02 =======

Okay, thanks for explaining that. I have to admit, my brain for some strange reason interpreted EngD as DPhil. Still getting rid of a pretty savage cold (eyes streaming) so I'll blame that!!! :$

I guess the original poster has four years to fall back on when applying for jobs!!! In their sitation at least, I'd apply for a direct position.

However, I will comment that the thread title covers both EngD and PhD, so my fence sitting from the PhD angle still applies.

I'm in a similar position - I'm 6 months from the end of my Systems Engineering EngD and thinking about future options. The company that's sponsoring my research has offered me a place on their grad scheme, although I'm not too keen - I'd have a take a 5-6k pay cut for a start!

I've seen some data that suggests EngD's earn £100-300k beyond a PhD's salary over the course of their careers. Additionally, I've seen other data that suggests that 50-55% of EngD graduates earn between £20-30k pa. I've also come across the EPSRC's EngD stakeholder survey from 2006 that suggests that EngD's earn no more than PhD's! So I'm pretty confused. I'd be interested to know where you got your data from Delta() - I've not come across anything so specific before.

Since an EngD is essentially 4-years in industry with the same company whilst doing some research and I started mine straight from finishing my undergrad degree, I've being thinking of the EngD essentially as a type of grad scheme (without the oppportunity to move around different departments). As such, I certainly don't fancy a grad scheme!

On an aside, Delta(), what type of organisation do you work for if it's willing to offer a position that seems tailored to an EngD grad?

======= Date Modified 04 Apr 2011 20:36:16 =======

Rich there is a lot of info out there and your university should be able to help you get job positions and salaries of previous students, universities are funny about giving that info out to students of other unis. I know from those that have graduated recently on the EngD programme £40k+ is the norm. I have a few resources from the web. You need to look at the date of the original salary information as there is a lot from the 90s which if you compare with a normal engineering salary from then it is a huge salary as salary rises with inflation you should take this into account. For example these two documents.
Research Councils UK 2007 - Study on the economic impact of the research councils - average 31k in 1998. £43k in 2011.
EngD-Engineering Tomorrow - 1996-2001 average £32k and again £47k in 2011.
The RPI inflation rates are as follows, 1996-2.4%, 1997-3.1%, 1998-3.4%, 1999-1.5%, 2000-3.0%, 2001-1.8%, 2002-1.7%, 2003-2.9%, 2004-3.0%, 2005-2.8%, 2006-3.2%, 2007-4.3%, 2008-4.0%, 2009--0.5% and 2010-4.8%. Whilst people have had issues getting inflation payrises in the past year, engineering is in demand and you should push to get a £40k+ salary. Above inflation payrises may come later to compensate. However do not give in to an employer trying their luck because it undervalues EngD graduates. You are/will be a chartered engineer, have done MBA modules, have run your own technical project for 4 years and the team needed to support this, you have 4 years work experience (at a level most undergrads do not get) and a doctorate.

======= Date Modified 04 Apr 2011 20:36:50 =======
To add more info.
Consider also the EngD earns atleast as much as a PhD. Factor in 4 years work experience and you can see here http://www.payscale.com/research/UK/Degree=Doctorate_(PhD),_Engineering/Salary that a PhD with 4 years experience earns £41,762. I will keep adding info here when I find more. Please also contribute if you find any info.

Rich, I know which article you are referring to about the 50% here is the info (percentage and average £ in that range). https://www.rcnde.ac.uk/public/EngD-EngineeringTomorrow.pdf
5% 20k, 55% 25k, 20% 35k, 20% 50k
It is for 1996-2001, or on average 1998. The average salary in that sample is £31.75k. Applying inflation takes this to £46.75k in 2011.

======= Date Modified 05 Apr 2011 09:28:09 =======
One factor however Delta that you are not taking into account is the recession. Many companies either had to cut back previously (leaving a lot of quality engineers with experience unemployed and after jobs) or they may even still be cutting back. This means that people may have to take slightly less than what you're saying.

I stand by what both Delta and I said earlier about not taking anything graduate level - that would be truly preposterous in my view, you could have saved yourself 4 years. Instead I would focus your CV and covering letter on the fact that you are chartered or are about to become chartered (obviously sort this out as well as saying it!) and approach companies for roles that at the least require "3-4 years experience". There are a good few of these around that offer over 35k. Alright this is not 42k but your salary should go up fairly quickly anyway.

One thing to bear in mind is that you will need to work in a similar area of engineering to your EngD (I realise this may sound obvious). Before my PhD I was looking to move into the renewables sector after working in the military sector. ALL employers wanted experience in the renewable industry, leading to the catch 22 of "do you have experience in renewables? No? Then you can't work for us and get experience in renewables."

So long as you are fairly flexible on location then you shouldn't have too many problems finding a 35k relevant job that you should be ideally suited for. Take that and you will probably be on 40k within a year or 2 max, especially if the company is smaller with a less rigid promotion system. What ever you do DO NOT GO ON A GRADUATE SCHEME. (up)

Edited for spelling

Very sound thinking. The recession puts the brakes on salaries, but atleast £35k minimum is on the cards. It is the case that when salaries fall back from inflation because of a recession they increase above inflation later to make up for it. Either way it is critical you are paid what you are worth. My opinion would be to drive for £40k+ and accept no less than £35k.

I should tell my future husband to do an EngD, sounds like that's where the money is :p

He's in Building Services though, I guess that's not as good as some of ther other engineering industry. He's got a BEng, is doing a PT MSc, has nearly 7 years experience and isn't even on 25k ;-)

Probably still better off than me though, with a life sciences BSc and PhD I've applied for jobs in industry that pay 18-20k. I can't even get interviews for those either :$

There's some good stuff here and if I could only have had my time over again, I would have pushed the EngD angle. :-(

Hi everyone, thanks for the input.

I think you are right that you should push for a direct entry position rather than going through a graduate scheme. However, it's important to make this decision yourself and this might not be the same for all individuals doing an EngD.

On the theme of potential wages, I think some a current survey of graduate EngDs and PhDs salaries would be very useful. This could potentially help out those negotiating contracts to make sure they do not undersell their skills and experience. However, I would suggest that using an old data set and inflating this could be error laden and as such any figures produced in this manner should be taken as an indicative value rather than an absolute.

======= Date Modified 05 Apr 2011 14:01:05 =======
Redjesta, salaries do follow RPI closely.
For example a mechanical engineer in 2003 could get a salary of £19k on average. http://www.scenta.co.uk/careers/money/pay_&_prospects.cfm
Inflation takes this to £23.87k now. The average salary now is £24k.

An average salary for an EngD graduate in excess of £40k is very reasonable and what I have found from those that have graduated. Supported also by those articles that suggest with inflation included it should be £43-47k.