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How long is too long?

D

Hello everybody,
Hope you can help me out here. Or at least offer some other points of view.
I am currently a 5th year PhD student in a school in NY. I have yet to publish a paper (and still have not enough data to do so) and I keep seeing the finish line farther and farther away.
How did I get here? Sometimes I ask myself the same thing... Since I am in a US PhD program, my first year was spent with classes and trying to find the lab for my project. My second year, having chosen a supervisor, was spent trying to figure out what my project would be. This was because my supervisor has a very hands off approach to "mentoring". He wanted the idea for the project to come from me, not him. It's a great thing, but very daunting for somebody that didn't know the field so well... It took me a while and he did help somewhat.
The next year I spent piloting the big bulky Specific Aim 1, which involved behavioral experiments with animals that don't always do what you wish they'd do... I finally figured out a way to answer the question I had. But I was doing this in facilities that belonged to another lab. Therefore, the next step was to find a place for me to do the long term experiments. However, on my fourth year, my supervisor communicated to us that he had decided to take a position in another institution. My options were: go with him or stay and change labs and start on a completely new project. Since I was already on my fourth year I decided to go with him (sometimes I wonder what would have happened if I had chosen the other option... blue pill, red pill).
Anyway, since I wouldn't be able to start the behavior experiments right before we moved, I picked up a side project on a theme that the lab had recently started to work on. We moved last summer (Aug 08) and things have been quite slow... We had to set up the lab from almost scratch and I have only started my behavior experiments this month (April 09). My side project has been going, but all the data seem to be negative (still publish-able, but very unimpressive).
The thing is, I have realized now, that it's gonna take a really long time to finish the behavioral experiments, more than I would like to be here (I told my supervisor that I would come if he thought it was possible for me to graduate by the summer of 2010). My conservative estimate is that I would be finished by the fall of 2011 - more than 7 years for a PhD. I have suggested to my supervisor that I'd change that aim, but he really didn't like the idea. Said that we had planned this for a while and that I knew what I was proposing when I did (although I proposed it when I was in my 3rd year, when time issues were different).
I also don't really like to live where I live, feel quite lonely here and overworked. I'm starting to think life isn't supposed to be this hard and thinking of quitting (I'd leave with a Masters). But at the same time I feel like I've invested too much to just drop it...
Any thoughts or advice?

M

After five years, I'd say plough on and finish what you started (assuming it won't put you in massive debt). Keep impressing on your supervisor that you want to finish as soon as possible, and maybe use any delays to gain experience/publish/teach.

In terms of US PhDs, you're not really running that over time. My cousin took about seven years doing his PhD (US), and from what I gather it's sort of acceptable that PhDs can take ages to complete.

I'm in the UK and I've gone way beyond my four year deadline for a variety of unavoidable reasons, but I'm determined to finish my PhD. There comes a point when there is no turning back and you just have to aim for the finish line.

P

I dont know much about PhDs in the US, but I agree that ploughing on is the way out here... (not the only one of course..) It seems you are in a tricky position, especially if your supervisor does not want to change aims. During my PhD I have found that moving goalposts is completely acceptable (esp. when you do high risk experiments) and when I went to a "final year PhD" workshop, it went as far as: you have to work with whatever you've got at a particular point and then form your hypotheses/aims in such a way as to make them fit your results, so that a examiner can see that you have achieved your aims. Any other aims, e.g. ones you originally had, could come in as "further work" in your thesis. I know that kind of approach seems almost anti-science methodology, but it acknowledges that you have to finish your PhD at some point ( we all could go on and on and on with our topic, right?!) and that it might not be the highlight of your scientific career. It is a learning process, and the aim is to come out as a competent researcher.
I think it might help to ask yourself just how much longer you are willing to spend on your project and work towards that deadline. Talk to your supervisor telling him what you intend to do, present a workplan, and your amended aims. In the end it is your work, and although we all want our theses to be amazing and groundbreaking, all they need to really be is of sufficient standard to make us pass. Don't give up - good luck.

D

keep going but don't be intimidated into doing anything that doesn't suit you. This is your research and its very personal, I changed my aims half way through mainly because I found a more interesting and focused route. Sometimes its in the way you sell it - telling a seasoned academic researcher that you wish to change aims because you want things to be easier or more convenient will raise their hackles. Be enthused about the new aims you have identified and sell them as a more relevant and interesting focus for your research. Don't give up now - Good luck

D

Thank you everybody for great advice. I have tried to make the new project look more interesting, and not something I wanted to do just to graduate, and my supervisor seems to be warming up to the idea. I am also trying to keep positive and think this is not the end of the world. Just a little bit more patience and persistence. PhDs really are big learning experiences, not only about the research topic and the scientific method but mainly about our own limits...
Thanks once again!(up)

R

Celebrate your ability to persevere and your inner resources. Sounds like you are managing against various challenges.

Scientific experiments are not my field but just wanted to congratulate you on your perseverance and tenacity.

D

Plough on McDuff...as they say in the theatre!

A masters does not seem a good return on what you have already invested!!!

((hug))

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