Hi again

I was wondering if people had any thoughts on the value of the Master's of Research degree which is part of the New Route PhD? It's hard for me to see them as anything more than another fee income opportunity for Universities.

I want to develop the skills needed to complete a PhD but surely that's something you pick up whilst doing the M.Phil part of a PhD?

I want to apply for the M.Phil/PhD route but I'm concerned that if you apply to the same University which you got your last qualification from, your academic referees will only recommend you for the New Route so you are pretty much committed to either accepting it or leaving.

Hi Anne! Hmmm, interesting. I didn't really know much about this but have just had a little nosy on the internet to see what it's all about. I can see good and bad in it really. For people who have to do an MSc to get onto their PhD then it's possibly no bad thing, and might mean that the fees for the MSc will then also be covered, so more people will be able to afford to take this route into academia. In my subject (Clinical Psychology) it is compulsary at my university (and most others) to do an MSc before the PhD, which is very costly. However, having done the MSc and now being in my 2nd year PhD, I can appreciate how vital is was that I had the MSc. Psychology is a hugely diverse subject, and I think one issue is that in first year, people are at very different levels, some having done A level Psych and some not having done it. Thus first year is mostly spent just getting everyone to the same level, which means going over a lot of A level material for people who haven't done it. So the next two years are simply not enough to give everyone a good enough grounding in taught subjects and research skills so that they can progress straight to a PhD. In addition, it's such a competitive area that you need an MSc anyway to stand out from the crowd. But with subjects where no MSc is required and a student can get straight onto a PhD- the pure sciences for one, I don't know much about literature or humanities etc- then this extra year would seem like a complete waste of time and money to me. So in my opinion, for some people this may be beneficial, but I suspect that for most people it won't. Having said that, I don't really know much about the proposal for this new route, so with further information I might change my mind! Happy new year to everyone! KB.

I too didn't have to do this, but the expectation here when I applied that you will either take the research Masters, or your masters will have had 'substantial training', that is at least one module, devoted to research methods. Quite frankly I think some kind of research training is an absolute necessity before starting a PhD, the research I did before was of a totally different type, and I found the module in my MA was very important. We have sessions here about various aspects of research methods and without any background it would be very difficult to follow, also it speeds up your choice of methods for your own research, if you don't know what is available, how will you choose? I may be wrong, but at this university I think that you could do part of the masters research module for free if you thought you hadn't done enough on research methods before, we can do any masters modules for free - with the added bonus of not having to do any of the assignments- as part of our training package for PhD students.

I agree with you Joyce. Even though I did a research project as part of my BSc, it was nothing like as rigorous as the one that made up half of my MSc. I honestly could not have done the PhD without the MSc. I guess this is why the MSc is almost always required for Psychology- the different disciplines within the subject and the research methodologies are so diverse. I guess this is the case in other subjects too, but I think Psychology more than most. I only know of one person in our department (of over 70 PhD students) who got in with no masters degree, but had done research assistant work. She was made to sit two MSc modules in her first year PhD to learn research skills and advanced stats etc...she was seriously busy! But from what I can see, people in other subjects get on fine without needing a masters- I have a lot of pals doing biology PhDs and they got their place right after their BScs, so I guess it is these people who will be hit by the new system. KB

Thank you both (have marked you both as 'helpful users').

I agree research skills are necessary, it is just that if research skills are already covered in an MSc, doing them again just didn't seem justifiable.

Happy New Year to you.

Hi Anne,

My thoughts....
(without being a current Phd student but one who presently has to do a Masters with Research methods and substantial thesis. I am currently on the second part of the thesis-due for submission June 2010).

The new route Phd's are not about raising further fees (or solely this anyway- to some extent all things are influenced by commerce) but are a response to the criticism of current university Phd's- where attrition rate and failure of otherwise gifted students, has raised many questions. These questions come not only from the tertiary education sector but from governments and industry. Having to focus on the research methodology before being stranded so to speak on Dissertation Island, with only a computer and supervisor/s of differing qualities to help, means that many candidates will be given a better foundation. And very possibly for those candidates who after a year or so...are really unhappy in the Phd program; well these ones can opt to leave a little earlier still with a qualification and formal recognition of their hard work and contributions.

My own studies have shown me just how different the Phd-can be from everything I have done before. I am speaking as someone who has always regarded herself as a competent student. However, the thesis in this Masters, with its supervision woes, Ethical committee delays and constant rewriting of material, have really given me an insight into how it would be in the Phd-so I for one am glad to go this route. Never thought I would say this either...I was all (some years ago) for getting straight into it and no delays-as I had to obtain work to fund myself, this slowed me down and forced me to take this route. I am glad I have. (Sorry if this seems a bit "meish"-just thought the experience might help).

The other thing is, over the last few days while cruising these posts, I have read posts by people who have actually completed and failed! So hard, devastating and seemingly undeserved. If the New Route Phd prevents this from occurring; it is a good thing.

Cheers

Hmm, I see your point Pjlu. I guess it's the usual case of what suits one person isn't always going to suit another. It will be interesting to see what happens with it and how successful the scheme is. KB