Sorry, this post is perhaps just another frustrated job seeker moaning. Nonetheless, I would like to hear what others have to say about whether publishing is or isn't everything.

Here's my story. I've recently completed my PhD and I have three publications in A* ranked journals, a fourth that has been accepted to another A* ranked journal and waiting to hear on a fifth one from the same journal. (By the way, A* ranked refers to a former Australian system that assigned journals these labels as indicators of quality).

I've been applying for jobs for over a year and a half now with zero success. My lack of success may be partly due to where and with whom I did my PhD. Admittedly, I'm not from a top department and I was the only person in my department to get anything published in A* ranked journals for the current REF period.

I get the feeling that when applying for jobs I may not look as credible as candidates from top departments, especially given that fact that during several job interviews senior academics have explicitly expressed their surprise that I am able to do so much considering where I did my research. I have had success in getting my work out in the best possible places to demonstrate my credibility (and also because I enjoy it!) and it's being cited, but it's obviously not working out.

So maybe publishing is NOT everything. It's much more than that, to do with your academic standing which can't be improved with publishing alone.

If you are getting interviews then you are getting further than most, and it suggests that your cv is strong and that your institution isn't a barrier, but perhaps that you are not performing well at interview. Anecdotally, what I've heard quite a lot is that new PhDs sem to have completely missed the fact that the academic environment in the UK has changed quite a bit in the last few years, and have not realised that teaching matters a lot more than it did, and also that research plans need to take into account the impact agenda and the fact that funding is limited. Maybe you are coming across as too much of a one-sided person (a strategy that would have worked a few years ago but not now). Just a thought and I might be miles off, but it's something i've heard a lot about.

I was also going to mention the teaching thing, since it didn't seem to be mentioned in your post at all, but is vital for many academic employers now taking on new post-docs. At least as important as publications. Basically you need both. What teaching experience did you get during your PhD? If you didn't get any can you get some now as a post-doc, via a local university or even college? Anything at all would help.

One director of an institute told me he prefers to recruit postdoc who has publications in high impact journal.
His definition of high impact journal has 6 reviewers.
That is, if only five reviewers accept your paper, it can still be rejected for publication.

Journey, you did not mention if you are the first author in all these four papers.
Some supervisors appear as first author despite the students did most of the work, and wrote the first draft.

Another possibility is your university is not Top 100 university in the field.
So the PhD may not be as well recognized.
Some PhDs are accomplished within 3 years, and it may not have a rigorous process.
For example, the examiners may not have publications in your field or even cited in the thesis.

Hi ywan459,

This high impact journal that requires 6 reviewers for a paper is engineering-related.
The director was sharing with me on his paper which is related to satellite technology.

For science & education, it is also possible to have 8 reviewers; but it depends on the Chief Editor.

Thanks for all the replies. There are so many ways to determine journal quality, the metric I suggested is just one. I guess a good way is to see where all the work is that you cite. And MeaninginLife, I am second author on two of the papers (even though I did much of the work!), and first on the rest though I have co-authors.

I understand there are lots of factors that determine success in getting an academic job, not just publications. I think nowadays you have to have basically worked at the same level as a lecturer/research associate with all the associated duties BEFORE you complete your PhD, as bewildered and BilboBaggins suggest. Again, this will depend on whether any teaching/research/admin opportunities were available in your PhD department.

I've been applying for mainly research jobs (where teaching isn't really relevant) because I have little teaching experience to speak of. During the three years of my PhD, I only managed to get less than 10 hours teaching despite my constant nagging to teach! There were just no hours available, so I did ask around at other institutions (some quite far way) but that didn't get come up with anything, probably because I had no prior teaching experience and the other universities understandably save any spare teaching for their own postgrad students. I did manage to collaborate on research with people from elsewhere, though, which really motivated me to publish to keep up with them.

Has anyone been asked about "impact", as bewildered mentions? It's never been mentioned in that way in any of the jobs I've applied to. I do a science subject, so forgive me if I'm wrong, I thought "impact" was mainly relevant to arts subjects to show engagement with the general public, right?

Re impact - I went on a course recently about things every post doc need to know. There was a session about 'impact' where we were told impact didn't mean public engagement, instead it meant showing that your research would lead to something else happening. This could be a change in policy, a change in diagnosis or treatment for a disease or a change in the way other people do research, for example if you came up with a new technique. I guess by this definition a lot of research doesn't really have much impact, but it's something funding bodies want to know about.

Hi everyone,
Sorry to whinge again. Returning to the topic of getting academic jobs, I am now an even stronger believer that the most important things are WHERE and WHO you did your PhD with. What does anyone else think? Surely this makes you credible as a researcher in the eyes of recruiters.

It may seem obvious, but not to me when I was originally looking to do a PhD. I wanted to stay at the top university where I did my undergrad and masters, but there were no scholarships. My hopes of a PhD became real when I was approached (yes approached!) by a reasonable-ish-ranking university who offered lots of encouragement and money, so I accepted it.

As I've said in previous posts, I do not personally know of a single person who finished their PhD (and wanted to stay in academia) who failed to get an academic job of any description. My sustained lack of success seems unique among most of my friends who have academic jobs - it is the butt of many jokes! They simply don't get how I could have applied to so many jobs that I'm qualified for and not get a single one. My problems are the reason I turned to this website, as on here - for the first time - I have found others in similar situations. This forum is opening my eyes to the "real" world - I am not alone. And I now think my friends must be from a different planet!

Obviously, I constantly compare myself to my friends and ask them how they achieved their success. They reply with sensible suggestions and tell me their stories. Often it seems like I have done way more than they did when they finished their PhDs (e.g. publications, conferences). Maybe my friends don't come from a different planet, but they did all do PhDs in top departments at my old university or at other prestigious universities. This could partially explain their success and my lack of it. Any thoughts?

Hi Journey,

Don't apologise for whinging. You are discussing something that is really important to you. It sounds as if you are dealing with some doubt (and a little bit of despair) about where your hard work, success and study have led you.

I think that universities (and the people who staff them) say quite a lot of things about what will get you work and what won't but in the end, as you yourself pointed out earlier, it is complex and there are quite a number of factors that influence whether you will find work and the type of employment you obtain.

It does matter about which university you completed your PhD when applying for many positions-not all but definitely some. It matters because of the reputation, through the networking contacts, and because sometimes the 'standing' of a top university implies to others that your PhD and experiences are of a certain quality (whether this is true or not). Teaching also matters as noted above.

Given a range of 'equal' applicants-if you have to shortlist from a huge number of applications, then prestige of university, teaching experience, presentation of CV and interviewing skills, supervisor recommendations (and contacts) and publications and conferences-they are all going to contribute to who is interviewed and who is finally given the position.

Sometimes lecturers in universities (in the past especially-although they seem to be much more realistic recently-in personal experiences and that of friends), sold people their 'dreams'. 'Follow your star-you are one of the bright ones who have so much opportunity' sorts of discussions. And it was tempting to believe them and many did-including myself in younger years.

[For example, I understand that completing my PhD now will only lead me to certain destinations now given my age, stage and where I am studying (a very reputable uni indeed but not one of top standing). I am studying part-time as well. This doesn't mean it isn't worth doing the PhD or that it will lead nowhere but it realistically won't lead to the same destination as that of some of my fellow younger PhDers studying in more prestigious universities].

This doesn't mean you won't ever get a great job-but sometimes you need to be realistic, especially when looking for entry level employment. Have you had someone else check your CV-your old supervisor, or a friend yet? And can you broaden your search field while still looking for that dream post doctorate or research position? Can you get a practical diploma that enables you to teach in a college or senior secondary school or similar while you continue to look? Can you apply for a government level entry admin position where you can work your way into a research job later on? You may have thought of all of these already. I think you need to start making a plan and accept that you feel pretty upset (deep down) about the present state of affairs but you need to make a plan, follow it and don't look back (yet).

Hi journey,

I think scientists are now having to deal with the same kind of academic job market that those of us in other disciplines have had for well over a decade i.e. one where the majority of PhDs will not get academic jobs of any sort, even postdocs. This is a nasty thing to come to terms with, particularly if you are in an area that traditionally has been well-funded. I wondered from your last post about friends' successes whether this reflects the environment there was a few years ago, rather than that of today? If so, you do need to accept that the goalposts have ben moved, unfair though it is. It's not personal, it's structural.
This might be an off the wall suggestion but would you consider going abroad? Investigate the Marie Curie postdoc scheme for example. I'm not in a science field but in my discipline there seem to be quite a few postdoc jobs in Germany and the Nordic countries, just as there always was i.e. the funding doesn't seem to have dried up as much as in the UK. I also agree with pjlu that developing a plan b is a good idea. There's some good material on the vitae site for scientists, about doing exactly that.

I think part of the problem is that there are just too many PhDs out there competing for so few jobs. 4 or 5 years ago when the economic downturn kicked in, I think a lot of people (and I sort of include myself in this) went for a PhD as it seemed a safer bet than trying to look for a job. Fast forward to now, and you have lots of people all finishing their PhD at the same time and all trying to get a job. In my lab at uni, there were probably around 10 PhD students at any one time, but only 2-3 postdocs, so there just aren't enough jobs to go around.
Have you got your heart set on academia? I didn't want to stay in academia so moved into industry, I still get to use all my skills as a research scientist and I got a job fairly easily. I didn't have to worry about publications - I only had one (first author) paper, which wouldn't have been enough to get a postdoc, but was more than enough for an industry job. Failing that, then as bewildered suggested, perhaps try looking abroad for other opportunities.

Hi Journey,

In my personal experience, all of the posts I've seen filled in new universities have gone to people they know and who fit into the department's social scene. For example, there was one interview I went for where th Head of Department's best friend got the post.

I study at a top department and, yes, the three new recruits there are also from top universities. But one of them is an ex-student, while the external examiner of another was on the interview panel, and I know that external wanted to butter up the student/candidate's department. From what I've seen, the 'it's not what you know, but who you know' philosophy applies to some degree in all universities.

Getting to know people is always a good move - teaching helps with this (appologies if you've done this already). I can't add any more to what people have already said about finding work.

However, I've always had the impression it's harder for those in the sciences because so many PhDs are funded, often to carry out research work cheaply. Arts PhD funding is unbelievably scarce but thee have still, historically, been a similar number of lectureships. So I've thought that there would be much, much more science PhDs than there are science jobs.

Good luck! X

Pjlu, given my situation, I’ve regularly sought help from supervisors, careers advisers and friends who have academic jobs and I have got mostly positive comments of my applications. In fact, one of my friends in academia just got a new lectureship and he borrowed a lot of the stuff from my covering letters and CVs I sent him. I’ve also helped another friend (outside academia) get a job by writing his covering letter and CV – maybe I should start charging for this service!

My friends in academia encourage me by saying “give it time”, “you’re being impatient” etc. But a year and eight months looking for a job is really quite a long time! Also, I point out that they all got jobs BEFORE finishing their PhDs, so they don’t really understand the frustration of not having a proper job AFTER the PhD. As for a plan B, I’ve been pursuing that for over a year and a half too. I do have some work experience outside academia, so have been trying to re-kindle this career option. Despite many more applications to these type of entry-level jobs than to academic jobs, I have had ZERO interviews and only one phone interview.

Bewildered, I am also looking at other EU countries for jobs. It seems there are (bizarrely) very few jobs compared to in the UK. They do seem very enthusiastic when I have made enquiries about jobs, though I’ve never been shortlisted!

Smoobles, it is very well known that there are many more PhDs than jobs. But 100s of new jobs are coming up and I know so many people who have got them!

And Eska, it does help if you know someone. I got an interview once because (I’m pretty sure) I knew the head of department. Didn't get the job though.

I guess the best thing to do is not get too upset and I hope my story is a warning to others not to do a PhD if they are dead set on finding employment!

Maybe you should start charging for your CV service-given others are using your materials and obtaining work and you are still receiving no renumeration at all.

Have you thought about tutoring A level students and first year undergrads (and possibly postgrad international students as well).You could start by going through a private tutoring company but then once you have some contacts, perhaps even running your own service and doing this while still looking for work and publishing aspects of your work.

It might bring in some money, while you are still working on employment applications. Sorry to hear how bad it is for you...the employment market is really horrible in so many areas nowadays.

Here in Australia, it hasn't been as bad, but our present government have just brought in all of these new school funding reforms (good) which are being paid for out of higher education cutbacks (bad). No one is really happy about it and, no doubt, the end result for many in universities will be job cutbacks. Probably it will be part-timers, contract positions and tutors who will feel the pinch first though.

Good luck...sometimes bad luck does just happen...for reasons that we can't really do much about. But here is hoping that that really positive interview and offer are just around the corner for you.