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faded07
Monday, 16 April 2012 at 10:17am
Wednesday, 15 March 2017 at 11:16am
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Thread: Examiner Disagreement

posted
11-Jan-17, 09:16
edited about 23 seconds later
by faded07
Avatar for faded07
posted about 2 months ago
Quote From tru:
Hi, faded07,

Did you hear back from the chair? Were she and the senior officers able to help you?


Hi Tru,

Thanks for your message.

I haven't heard back from the chair as yet but was told that she would get back to me this week. In the meantime, I've had an email from my supervisor saying that the university have informed him that my examiner's wanted a third round of revisions to make my work publishable and that they cannot fail me as I already have a results letter saying that I've passed subject to minor revisions.

This doesn't seem to be in keeping with what the chair told me last week - that my external wanted my thesis failed. I don't think it's in the examiner's interests whether my work is published or not...surely that's my problem and not theirs. Anyway, at least I've got what he said in writing which helps my case in the long-term.

I really don't know what is going to happen from here. I'm feeling strangely positive at this stage. I don't think I'll even feel saddened if they fail me - that outcome just seems laughable now. I have such a strong case against both the university and my external examiner - I feel they would be mad to push this any further than it's already gone.

My main interest now is time and trying to save whatever is left of it. I'm not spending 2017 doing more pointless revisions and waiting months for results. I expect to have a clear outcome this month as I'd quite like to move forward with my career now and know what it's like to live a life without having PhD problems permanently in the background.

Will keep you updated!

Thread: Examiner's Report - How much detail should there be?

posted
06-Jan-17, 17:23
edited about 15 seconds later
by faded07
Avatar for faded07
posted about 2 months ago
PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE COULD YOU HELP ME? (I am desperate!!)

If you have had a viva and received an examiner's report for corrections of any variety, could you please tell me how long your report (or list of corrections) was?

This can be for any type of corrections/revisions: minor / major / R&R - anything. I received 5 sentences (after a 5 month wait)...that's 1 sentence a month...wow...hard work being an experienced Professor ain't it?

Anyway, all joking aside, I'm going through an important appeal and your feedback would greatly help me. Thank you!!

Thread: Examiner Disagreement

posted
06-Jan-17, 17:19
by faded07
Avatar for faded07
posted about 2 months ago
Hi everyone,

Thank you for your helpful replies. I may well request a third examiner but this hasn't been put forward as an option for me as yet. After submitting my thesis 3 times, I really don't want to go back to a 'first submission' stage and have to endure a viva and possibly more corrections depending on the sanity of my new examiner (if you'll pardon my scepticism).

I met with the chair of my examination panel yesterday and very clearly outlined my concerns over the current situation. Although, at first, she seemed defensive of the university (as I expected), she gradually had little to say to me as even she wasn't aware of the full extent of fuck ups that have occurred throughout my PhD journey. The university aren't even aware that some of the requests of my external are completely new...yet they are supporting this. How do I know that, after submitting for a fourth time, my external won't have some more 'new' ideas to throw at me? It's ridiculous.

I have politely told the chair that I don't intend to do the revisions as they are either new or have already been addressed. I informed her that, at this stage, I am wanting a reconsideration of the current situation given the concerns I have (I prepared lengthy documents outlining my concerns, alongside the procedural irregularities that have happened over the past 3 years!)

The chair is now in talks with 'senior officers' (whatever that means) and I should hear back within a week so will keep you all updated. If you haven't been following my story: don't assume any positive or coherent outcome to be on the horizon. My university are beyond useless and likely to be sued if this carries on for much longer.

Thread: Examiner Disagreement

posted
03-Jan-17, 10:40
by faded07
Avatar for faded07
posted about 2 months ago
I'm having major problems with my PhD (see previous posts) and am desperately seeking advice.

Has anyone experienced a dispute between their external and internal examiner? I have gone through two revision periods over a two year capacity and my external is now requesting an unprecedented third revision period as she is still not satisfied with the extensive work I've done. My viva was in 2014 and I can't bear the thought of any more revisions - my thesis is 163,000 words and its narrative has been completely lost due to the requests of my external.

As it stands, my internal thinks I've done everything asked of me and wants it passed. My external, however, disagrees. There doesn't seem to be any official rules at my university as to what procedure should be followed in this instance.

Some of the new revisions being asked of me by my external don't even relate to previous reports which means the goal posts are being moved. This seems tremendously unfair and unprofessional to me.

My university are completely useless and keep running away from resolving the situation. I keep getting passed along to different people and nobody has answers. My last submission was in July 2016 and all I've received since then is an email telling me that a third round of revisions is being requested by my external (via special permission from the Deputy Vice Chancellor), which are only 9 sentences long and lack clarity. It is clear she will never want to pass my thesis.

Has anyone encountered a similar situation? Or does anyone know how their institution would deal with a disagreement between examiners?

Thread: Advice Required! How long should you wait for your PhD result after submitting with minors?

posted
14-Dec-16, 09:22
by faded07
Avatar for faded07
posted about 3 months ago
Thought I would give you all an update, although there isn't much to say in terms of what has been confirmed. My supervisor keeps getting my hopes up by putting forward possible scenarios which will see my PhD awarded but these scenarios haven't amounted to anything as yet.

We're currently trying to establish whether my external wants to see this third round of revisions. If she does, things aren't looking too good. If she doesn't and only my internal is required to look at them, my supervisor is confident that I won't even have to do the revisions and the thesis will be immediately passed by her as she has already written a report recommending that I be awarded the doctorate.

So...you would think getting a simple yes/no answer from my external wouldn't be a complicated matter. However, it's been nearly two weeks and I still haven't been provided with an answer. The SU have said I can't appeal against anything as I don't have an 'official' result as yet.

The university will close down for a month at the end of this week for the Xmas vacation so everyone will be signed off until mid-January. I think that not being able to provide me with an answer from my external at this stage is unacceptable. I submitted 6 months ago and haven't even been given a clear report from my examiners. My viva was 2 years ago now.

So incredibly fed up with being thrown breadcrumbs all the time. Career is on hold and the stress is unbearable.

Thread: Advice Required! How long should you wait for your PhD result after submitting with minors?

posted
02-Dec-16, 16:06
by faded07
Avatar for faded07
posted about 3 months ago
pm133:

I would like to clarify that I am not seeking legal advice at this stage but am seeking advice through the Student's Union. I might (emphasise on the 'might') end up seeking legal advice should this result in a fail for the following reasons:

- My initial viva report which put forward the necessary revisions of my R&R was lost by the chair of my examination panel and my examiner's also failed to hold back up copies of this. This resulted in a 3 month wait for my report which, I suspect, had to be re-written and wasn't an accurate depiction of the revisions suggested on the day.

- Upon completion of my 12 months R&R I endured a 3 month wait for my result. After chasing it, the office issued me an incorrect result telling me I had failed when, it turns out, I had 6 months minor revisions because my external still wasn't happy with how I'd addressed the first round.

- The reports from my external examiner during both correction periods have been very short (around half a page) and incredibly vague making it difficult to cater to her love of precision.

- They have now given me a third revision period (which, according to the rules, doesn't exist) and a few sentences of compulsory revisions from my external which even my supervisor can't understand. She continues to be incredibly vague and it's clear that she wants the process dragged out so that I either a) give up or b) continue to work on my thesis for the rest of my life.

- As a result of all the above I have missed out on job opportunities which, in turn, has contributed to a loss of earnings.

- And, finally, I didn't appreciate the personal attack of an administrator incorrectly putting 'Dr' next to my name which resulted in an immediate investigation into my role in my new workplace. The university could have simply requested the error be rectified immediately without the need for an investigation.

Thread: Advice Required! How long should you wait for your PhD result after submitting with minors?

posted
02-Dec-16, 09:39
edited about 28 seconds later
by faded07
Avatar for faded07
posted about 3 months ago
Latest update: I had a meeting with my supervisor yesterday who is being surprisingly supportive. He's just as furious as me and agrees that we could be working on revisions for another 20 years and my external would still fail it. Even he said that this was becoming more of a personal attack due to our ideological differences on what is, in essence, quite a sensitive research topic.

So, for now, I'm heading down the appeal road which will be long and tedious but I'm sure at this stage that it is the right thing to do.

The revisions my external has recommended are very short (about 10 lines) and incredibly vague. Even my supervisor said he doesn't understand what she's asking and can't think of anything to say to me anymore. We really have exhausted all options with these revisions.

I know my external has been signed off ill and I'm starting to wonder whether this could be due to a mental health problem as her behaviour is veering down the maverick path.

The one thing that has lifted my spirits is that my supervisor has said that my internal thought I had fully addressed all the revisions asked of me and has been fighting for me to be awarded this PhD. Why my external is so hellbent on me working on infinite revisions (considering the thesis is 163,000 words) beggars belief. Everyone at my institution is in agreement that I have addressed the revisions asked of me.

So, let's see where the road takes me. I am exhausted by the whole process but I'm 100% ready for this fight. I've been waiting an awfully long time for it...

Thread: Advice Required! How long should you wait for your PhD result after submitting with minors?

posted
02-Dec-16, 09:33
edited about 23 seconds later
by faded07
Avatar for faded07
posted about 3 months ago
Quote From pm133:
Quote From PracticalMouse:
Quote From pm133:
Quote From PracticalMouse:
I hope you're now considering legal advice regarding your situation - someone clearly has it in for you, and you need to make sure you've covered your bases. Despicable behaviour on their part - an honest mistake that could have been rectified discreetly, but that's clearly not their agenda.


Legal action? Against who? On what grounds? How should it be funded?
I cant imagine adding a legal case to the current situation would help faded07.


That's why I used the words 'considering' and 'advice'. In light of further developments I think not totally unwarranted.


I have not followed all of this posters story so I am unaware of any illegal behaviour by anyone.
This simply looks like a story of one person struggling to prove their work is good enough to win a PhD in the face of quite a few setbacks and what seems a poor initial submission.
That is why I was asking you what grounds she could sue and who she should sue. I am still interested in hearing your view on that
whether you use the words consider and advise or not.


Thank you for the 'poor initial submission' comment which has really boosted my morale. The thesis I initially submitted hasn't actually been edited - it has only ever been added to so I guess my examiner's had no problem with the quality of what I'd written, they just wanted more chapters added in on things that suited my external's stance on the topic.

I appreciate your insight though if you truly believe the legal route isn't the way to go. I think it may well be eventually (thank you PracticalMouse) but I'm trying to hold off on it for as long as possible. I'm currently seeking advice from the Student Union and my supervisor.

Thread: Advice Required! How long should you wait for your PhD result after submitting with minors?

posted
01-Dec-16, 09:49
edited about 5 seconds later
by faded07
Avatar for faded07
posted about 3 months ago
So I finally got my result...which isn't really much of a result. As I've stated before, I doubt my 'congratulations Dr' email will ever come.

Although I've had 12 months R&R, followed by a 6 month minor revision period - both of which have taken up 2 years of my life (my viva was in December 2014), due to the dispute over my revisions, I have been given special permission by the Deputy Vice Chancellor to give further consideration to what my external examiner wants. As a result of this, I've been sent a rather vague 3 paragraphs of further revisions to do over the next 6 months (even though my last submission was meant to be my final submission - as per the university regulations).

This is a result I was not expecting at all because my last outcome letter said that my last submission would indeed be my last. So the thought of going back to my thesis now just seems impossible - I can barely remember large chunks of it.

I am absolutely sure at this stage that however I attempt to do these corrections will not please my external as we clearly are living in parallel universes. I am also sure that, if I resubmit for a third time, I will be waiting until 2018 for my result which, quite likely, will be a fail as my external has repeatedly shown that she does not want this thesis passed.

I think this revision period is just a way of giving the university more time to figure out how to deal with the situation. It's just time buying, nothing more.

So I don't know what to do. I've just thrown half my work across the room out of rage so, as you can imagine, I'm dealing with the situation very well.

My job is also incredibly demanding and I can barely stay afloat. There's no way I'm walking away from the PhD...but I don't deem this situation fair at all. Any advice greatly appreciated.

Thread: Advice Required! How long should you wait for your PhD result after submitting with minors?

posted
29-Nov-16, 16:36
by faded07
Avatar for faded07
posted about 4 months ago
Hello all,

Thank you once again for all your supportive messages. I am pleased to say that the complaint against me has been dropped after I provided sufficient evidence that I never used the title of 'Dr' to falsify or mislead anyone into giving me a job etc. Fortunately I was able to prove that this misunderstanding was down to administrative error. I would certainly never dream of calling myself a Dr - my PhD process has been jinxed enough as it is!!

Still no news regarding my result/examiner's dispute. So the wait continues.

I'm certain that this student complaint was directly resulted to the dispute and has held my result up for even longer. Not too sure if I'll hear anything this side of Christmas...

I've decided not to chase the university for now as any contact I have with them seems to result in very negative circumstances. I think I'm best giving them space and hoping that they are fighting for me (cue eye roll). Plus, my most recent emails of two weeks ago have been ignored anyway so I'm sure that more emails and phone calls will just meet the same fate.

Will keep you all updated.

Thread: Advice Required! How long should you wait for your PhD result after submitting with minors?

posted
29-Nov-16, 16:31
edited about 25 seconds later
by faded07
Avatar for faded07
posted about 4 months ago
Quote From JStanley:
Jeez, mate. To echo others, I am just glad that your current employer is on your side. I have no advice to give, faded07. I do believe that everyone has to answer for their conduct in the end though and whoever did this will get no luck for this. You stay being you. This case just shows how the UK system needs to be overhauled. A more moderated system like you have in US and mainland Europe would surely prevent this kind of thing. Placing all this power in the hands of a stranger is crazy in this day and age. I just wish for strength and support for you, faded. I look forward to you getting your PhD (which you should have been awarded 2 years ago) and publishing works and going on to be successful at whatever you do. And remember you are so strong to keep going through this. You can get through anything now, faded.


Hey JStanley, good to hear from you. Thank you for your supportive words. It is a crazy situation to be in and seems to get worse the further I venture down this path. I hope with all my heart that I get this PhD. I just seem lost in this grey waiting area terrified at the fact that my external seems willing to do anything she can to make sure I don't get this doctorate. I just hope justice is served. Will let you know! - Anz (now known as faded due to the paranoia that someone is clearly Google stalking me...! Not that there is anything wrong with writing here, plus it's all anonymous etc. And, to be honest, I feel faded at this stage!!)

Thread: Advice Required! How long should you wait for your PhD result after submitting with minors?

posted
24-Nov-16, 15:51
edited about 6 seconds later
by faded07
Avatar for faded07
posted about 4 months ago
(2/2) It seems quite obvious that this complaint is connected to the dispute over whether my PhD should pass. I'll never know who it is that raised this complaint but I assume it is someone involved in the process (potentially my external).

I guess they think that I got my lecturing job fraudulently and are trying to ensure an instant dismissal. Fortunately, they can dream on.

My staff profile was changed immediately and all my students have had to be informed that, if they saw a 'Dr' next to my name at any point, this was incorrect. Talk about humiliating.

I continue to be in immense shock that my PhD institution has no regard for my life or career. They keep me waiting for as long as they want with no information, lose important documents, issue me with wrong results and now dare to raise a serious complaint against me which could seriously damage both myself and my employer's reputation.

I've always tried to distance myself from the emotions of this process and tell myself that it's nothing personal. But now, it really fucking is.

Sorry for the vent, I'm just at the end of my tether her. And yes, I'm sure it will get worse.

As per usual, any advice or comments greatly appreciated. Thank you all.

Thread: Advice Required! How long should you wait for your PhD result after submitting with minors?

posted
24-Nov-16, 15:46
by faded07
Avatar for faded07
posted about 4 months ago
(1/2) Hello all,

Thought I'd update you on my situation. The title of my journey is "Just when you think it can't get any worse, it always does".

Still no news regarding the disagreement between my examiners. Polite e-mails that I sent last week asking if my thesis had gone to Senate etc have been ignored and, as per usual, the university aren't at all bothered about leaving me in the dark. It's been a five month wait now since I submitted and no one can give me an expected turnaround time for when (or if) this dispute will be resolved.

Anyway, the way in which it got much worse is....

I received an official letter from the university this week from student complaints saying I was being investigating for fraudulently using my PhD when I haven't been awarded it yet. Long story short: someone (who clearly despises me) found my staff profile on the university where I work which (through admin error) had 'Dr' in front of my name. This was something I had not written myself and, as my colleagues can verify, I never during my application or employment at the institution stated that I had been awarded my PhD. Everyone knew that I had submitted with minors and was awaiting my result.

As a result of this complaint, my employer has been contacted by my PhD university and is being investigated. This is absolutely degrading and humiliating for me as I've only been in my new job for 3 months. I've had to have meetings with my HoD and explain everything that's been happening over the past couple of weeks.

I now have 10 days to write a personal statement defending myself (when I've done absolutely nothing wrong). Fortunately my employer is as shocked as me and is being incredibly supportive, with all my colleagues coming forward to give statements to ensure I never lied about my credentials.

Thread: Advice Required! How long should you wait for your PhD result after submitting with minors?

posted
22-Nov-16, 09:56
by faded07
Avatar for faded07
posted about 4 months ago
Hi all,

Thanks again for your advice. Gwen86 - I don't have a counsellor at the moment. I'm too busy counselling my undergraduate students to warrant seeking counselling myself (oh dear!) I'm not sure if I'm the counselling type anyway to be honest, although I appreciate it might be a good way to vent.

I still don't have any update on my PhD. My supervisor said he'd try and find out if my internal examiner was now looking at the thesis. That was last Thursday. My internal is in the office next door to my supervisor but it seems that getting the answer to such a simple question is, as always, extremely tedious. I'm yet to have any update from my supervisor.

I also wrote to a senior academic who seems to have taken over the role of the admin team (she's the one who sent me the email explaining that there is a disagreement). I sent her a calm and short email thanking her for looking into this for me and asked the following:

"I appreciate that the university is looking into the best way to resolve this disagreement. Do you know how long this issue has been under discussion? I assume that, in keeping with Senate Regulations, a Designated Officer has been appointed to resolve this issue? If so, are you able to give me any indication of a time frame in which this matter is likely to be resolved?"

That was last Friday - it's now Tuesday and I've had no response. I'll have to give it until the end of the week but I fail to understand why answering such basic questions is so difficult for everyone involved in my PhD.

I know it's not over yet and there's still a chance but I just feel so exhausted after waiting nearly 5 months (+ everything that's gone before that). I can't sleep at night and my job is so demanding (with a 6 hour commute)...I think I'm going to have a burnout.

Thread: Advice Required! How long should you wait for your PhD result after submitting with minors?

posted
18-Nov-16, 12:22
by faded07
Avatar for faded07
posted about 4 months ago
Thank you all for your advice and support. It makes such a difference to have your feedback and gain some insight from fellow PhD'ers.

I'm still feeling pretty numb about it all. I contacted my supervisor yesterday and he just replied with a one sentence email saying he would look into it. I think he must have known as he's been very quiet over the past month and hadn't been very proactive in getting any information for me.

Much as I want to push them in terms of time limits etc, I also don't want to rush them into making a decision which might not be to my advantage. I have to assume (and hope) that the university is fighting for me and, I guess, leave them to their own devices until I hear more.

Having looked at the PhD guidelines, there doesn't seem to be any rule as to what happens in this scenario. They've only included a clause on if examiners disagree over what revisions need to be done...in which case the issue goes to senate in order for it to be resolved. I can't find any information as to what happens if they disagree over whether the revisions are up to PhD standard.

I seriously can't believe that I could lose out on my PhD over 12,000 words of revisions when, according to the paperwork I have so far, the other 150,000 words of my PhD are deemed to have met the standards. I worked really hard on my minor revisions and thought they were the best I could produce - I really tried to think outside of my own mind and tried to embody the mind of my external examiner. Evidently that didn't get me anywhere.

I wish there was something I could do but I guess I just have to be patient. I'm scared this is going to go into 2017 now and I just can't bear that thought...the wait gets harder as more time passes.
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